If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. Epicurean Paradox. That's a contradiction. Epicurean Paradox . Isn’t the answer to the bottom loop God did create a world with free will and without evil but Adam and Eve were tempted and ate the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. https://www.reddit.com/r/coolguides/comments/g2axoj/epicurean_paradox Closed to new replies Posted: September 16, 2020. Additions to the paradox. Otherwise it's bad parenting. Hey presto, that's exactly what he did, like if there is light then there is also dark. But I think we have a right to be insulted by what equates to a resigned attitude to the terrible suffering of others because it is part of some unknowable plan. The Epicurean paradox. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. True, but it does eliminate a few answers that people have proposed over time. He created our universe because the good outweighs the evil. My teenage son asked me for an answer to the Epicurean Paradox that he had seen posted on a Reddit thread. I wish there was a "he wanted to" option. (That begs a more political question of if you can prevent death and do not, is that evil?). It is an equally powerful and still relevant position. Sure, this requires more knowledge and creativity, but I … We read it in the Bible, by faith we accept it but, it is still a mystery to the human mind and how he did all this. My favorite is when Jesus, after his resurrection and he appeared to the 11 first and then the 12, in the upper room, the door was locked each time and he just appeared. Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc. Drich I'm the one who knocks Religious Views: Bible based Christian. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Substitute 'evil' for 'suffering' and the argument becomes indubitable. You couldn't resolve the Epicurean paradox and now you're on the verge of creating another paradox depending on your theology and "interpretation of scripture". If you as an individual are going through something rough and have the potentially mistaken belief that it serves some larger purpose, sure, fine. Natural/ Divine "evil"(natural disasters, famine, disease, etc.). Blame the man, because the man has free will and is accountable for his actions. 55.3k members in the religion community. Thank you for this. He has created every universe that results in good being added to the world. If you're cool about things you will also give them the option to get a "get out of hell free" card and pay all the penalties they incur. ISK: 122.66m: 513,212: 59.01m: 482,027: 67.5: 100,261; Ships: 0: 100,433: 1: 139,541: 0.0: 100,261 In a broad sense, it is a system of ethics embracing every conception or form of life that can be traced to the principles of his philosophy. Greek philosopher Epicurus (342- 271BCE) claimed that the existence of suffering proved there is no God. Epicurean paradox: 29 ships destroyed and 32 ships lost. Therefore it is contradictory to say free will can exist but evil can not. March 30, 2012 at 9:26 am . A place for teen atheists, agnostics, etc. 1.3k members in the AtheisticTeens community. Epicurean Paradox. It's akin to having rubber bullet training exercises before we go to war. Or is it better for some people to remember me fondly and some people remember me as ruthless or hard, but I am able to provide materially for more people? Forums > Community > Philosophy & Religion. I actually believe there's a difference between not letting your kid eat too much candy, and inventing a parasitic worm for the purpose of burrowing out of the eyes of men, women, and children, blinding them permanently to, what, make them appreciate sight? If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. If there were anything harmful in the rest of experience, they would have provided for that too, to make it in everyone's power to avoid falling into it; and if something cannot make a human being worse, how could it make his life a worse life? 1. The paradox of hedonism, also called the pleasure paradox, refers to the practical difficulties encountered in the pursuit of pleasure.For the hedonist, constant pleasure-seeking may not yield the most actual pleasure or happiness in the long run—or even in the short run, when consciously pursuing pleasure interferes with experiencing it.. (Book II, 11/p. Edit: didn't know this would blow up. Looks like you're using new Reddit on an old browser. Evil and oppression isn't a bug, its a feature essentially. (see: Paradise Lost) I think for a lot of people that can be difficult to accept, so it comes down to whether or not you believe (that, one, God exists, and, two, that God is benign and cares). Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei , 13, 20-21: God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is … I don’t care for its design, ’cause I’m a graphic artist and I can definitely make it easier to read and follow. This was a good question asked and answered in that "other web site" London, Penguin Books. Speaking on death, however, is it a bad thing in Christianity? Temporal inconvenience is seen as such a universal thing. Yes, that is one of the points of the diagram. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Sometimes it's grey. I think the idea of Free Will is huge here. Epicureanism, in a strict sense, the philosophy taught by Epicurus (341–270 BCE). Replies: 36 . 1+1 can not equal 3 because it’s contradictory against its nature. The Epicurean paradox or riddle of Epicurus or Epicurus' trilemma is a version of the problem of evil. But God is omniscient so he would know who is evil before they are born, could he not do anything to protect the people who will suffer at the hand of that evil man? Posts: 13111 Threads: 183 Joined: March 18, 2012 Reputation: 48 #1. I guess so, but my omnibenevolent mother wouldn't allow me to be raped, New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, Press J to jump to the feed. How to use epicurean in a sentence. How long until it drops me. Honestly expected most comments to be scoffing at religion so it's kind of nice to see so many people who feel the same. The problem of evil, also known as the Riddle of Epicurus, states: If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to. Source: MARCUS AURELIUS, HAMMOND, M., & CLAY, D. (2006). With the Monk life I never directly harm anyone through my actions, I live simply and modestly, but can't take care of many people's material needs. One century I am working as a Shepard taking care of sheep for my family, I compete with other sheep farmers and utilize animals against their will to make a living. The truth be told. Man-made evil (murder, rape, extortion, etc.). Share on Reddit Share on Google+ Share on StumbleUpon Share on LiveJournal. The raven paradox, also known as Hempel's paradox, Hempel's ravens, or rarely the paradox of indoor ornithology, is a paradox arising from the question of what constitutes evidence for a statement. Omnipotence does not mean necessary mean that God can do anything at all but rather, that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature. If He is both able and willing. 2. Is it better to be a Monk or to be a Merchant? Free will can not exist without the choice of evil because it’s contradictory against its nature. He claimed that if God cannot stop evil then he is not omnipotent. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. level 1 SOL6640 Rather than focusing on doing the right thing in face of adversity, it may be easier to avoid unpleasant situations. Thatd be super boring to watch. Take a look at this ancient argument against God that still challenges people today. 12). Which is the life that is best, one that is seen as good and moral in the century I live in or one that will be seen as good and moral by a perspectives that I haven't become aware of yet? I find it incredibly perverse that a belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, all-knowing God could lead one to think "there's some good in this" when horrific famines or diseases strike. My opponent has restated and even clarified the paradox. We, as adults, know that much worse exists. what are your thoughts on the Epicurean Paradox? Then whence cometh evil. Epicurean definition is - of or relating to Epicurus or Epicureanism. Epicurus didn't write it. Hell isn't enough. By some future standards perhaps I am a tyrant, abusing animals, eating their flesh. The “Epicurean paradox” or “Riddle of Epicurus” is a version of the problem of evil. Although considered paradoxes, some of these are simply based on fallacious reasoning (), or an unintuitive solution (). “Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil?”. And yet we debate the "Problem of Evil" anyway. THis is a test to see how pain and adversity affects us, if we cause pain to others etc. If you don't want to be putting on a puppet show for yourself for a few thousand years, then you need to give people the option to screw up royally. So the Epicurean paradox only applies to those systems and persons for whom God - in order to BE God - *must* be thought of as a compassionate, all-knowing Creator. The key is to solve the Epicurean Paradox. The Christian/Muslim god is also the God of Judaism and is considered to be the original source of the "Christian/Muslim" god. Hi my name is Jatur Carr and I would like to ask you all to support my mom through prayer. Now departure from the world of men is nothing to fear, if gods exist: because they would not involve you in any harm. Then comes the question of what is a good life? It's similar to a baby being pricked by a needle for the first time, to him it's the most excruciating pain there has ever existed. Question: Do you want to create a universe of puppets and yes-men or do you want your creatures to have the opportunity to love and obey you voluntarily? This is a great quote about agnosticism (and hats off to whoever came up with it because I 100% agree) but it's not really a Marcus Aurelius quote. Why Does Evil Exist? It perfectly gathers all the tangled, frayed, stray threads of my spiritual anxiety and weaves them back into the simple whole of which they were always part. In popular parlance, Epicureanism means devotion to pleasure, comfort, and high living. The paradox doesn't address that. I mean it's pretty clear what's the end answer here. The closest quote from Marcus has some similar sentiments but it also tells us that the guy wasn't an agnostic. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. I was thinking, if there is something god can't make himself than that would be greater than god, right? The epicurean paradox highlights the complexity of evil and suffering and the seeming contradiction of the existence of evil and suffering to a theist perspective. If He is able, but not willing. If I am a Merchant, maybe someone felt like I gave them a bad deal, maybe I end up out competing someone else out of the marketplace because I do something better than them, I work hard but my life is filled with complexities on who I am hurting and who I am helping. The Ellsberg paradox is a paradox in decision theory in which people's choices violate the postulates of subjective expected utility. I will clarify it again through an explanation of the problem of evil by the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. He must've gotten bored of the last 20 universes being complete boring paradises. I have a simple solution to this problem. So there’s this meme of the Epicurean Paradox on the internet, in which someone turned it into a flowchart. I don't even consider this as evil. Observing objects that are neither black nor ravens may formally increase the likelihood that all ravens are black even though, intuitively, these observations are unrelated. There is some good within this that we as humans can't understand. Some writings by Epicurus have survived. Picture based reference guides for anything and everything. Which is as silly and arbitrary a notion as saying that the moon must be made of green cheese, or it doesn't exist. I mean, im atheist, but if i was god why tf would i want to make a world with no evil. The hedgehog's dilemma, or sometimes the porcupine dilemma, is a metaphor about the challenges of human intimacy.It describes a situation in which a group of hedgehogs seek to move close to one another to share heat during cold weather. If they do not exist, or if they have no care for humankind, then what is life to me in a world devoid of gods, or devoid of providence? Which is the life that is more or less just? Live a good life. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. Your mother loves you, yet she doesn't grant you an easy life nor does she give you what you want - you must work for it. Her name is Tiwilla Carr. I have presented the Epicurean paradox which I contend successfully negates the existence of God. The word comes from a philosophical school of thought named for it’s founder Epicurus. Simply he is testing, wanting not the obedience of innocent drones but the obedience of tested, Free Willed people. He had a "gods do exist and they do care for mankind" position: You may leave this life at any moment: have this possibility in your mind in all that you do or say or think. Evil is also kinda an "human concept" not natural or universal. If love for him is the only thing god can't make it's still a win since the only thing greater than him is something in honour of him. Meditations. Use of the Epicurean paradox an ancient Greek way of thinking that many pleasure seeking Romans adopted didn't do much for either civilization. Remember: Infographics are learning tools, guides are reference tools. God can not cease to be God, it’s contradictory. 2. It is possible to live a productive life without ever running into a grey area? This is a list of paradoxes, grouped thematically.The grouping is approximate, as paradoxes may fit into more than one category. Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei, 13, 20-21: God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is … Yeah, me too. Not all of the reasonable options are shown in this. Re: The Epicurean Paradox. It has never been called the Epicurean Trilemma. Religious people. By having/allowing free will someone/something automatically will go on the "evil" side compared to the POV of someone else. A nice bit of philosophy that helps to discuss the problem of evil but doesn't really end up answering any questions about it. 172 votes, 348 comments. Free will is the decision to do good or evil. I did not have an answer - this is the result of my search to give a reply that would be a real answer to a tough question. You cannot still exist in Hell and remove yourself from an omnipresent being whom you assert Hell is apart from. The moment Free Will is introduced, the problem can be solved by the idea that God is omnipotent and omniscient, but he is not cruel. Link. I think that you can split evil into 2 categories. Reddit Looks like yea: A redditor’s version of the Epicurean Paradox. Marcus Aurelius’s Meditations and his ideas on Stoic philosophy are to live by. There is some good within this that we as humans can't understand, but I expect God to have a great (not just good) reason for. So it is possible to have a logical argument against the Problem of Evil, but the axiom requires faith that God is doing it/ allowing it for your best interests. It is generally taken to be evidence for ambiguity aversion.The paradox was popularized by Daniel Ellsberg, although a version of it was noted considerably earlier by John Maynard Keynes.. It's either been called the Epicurean paradox or the riddle of Epicurus. ... Short Squeezes and The Ethics of Reddit 3 days ago About Me. I feel like your 2 is saying that it is not evil, but that death via 1 is evil. Jesus was a paradox! And whose standards are we judging my justness and goodness? ... My teenage son asked me for an answer to the Epicurean Paradox that he had seen posted on a Reddit thread. The Epicurean Paradox is an interesting logical argument, but St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas have many interesting logical arguments on their side for the existence of God. She has stage 4 breast cancer,spine cancer,cancer spots on her left lung and pelvic area,a tumor in her skull,and Degenerative bone disease.She needs all the support that you guys/girls are willing to give.Thank you for anything you can do to help.May God bless you all But they do exist, and they do care for humankind: and they have put it absolutely in man's power to avoid falling into the true kinds of harm. The site may not work properly if you don't, If you do not update your browser, we suggest you visit, Press J to jump to the feed. by oaroloye(m): 8:18pm On Nov 24, 2016 Makaveli08 : If you don't know who is Alvin Plantinga and never heard his freewill defense, there's no need to even have a discussion with you about the logical problem of evil. Edit: oh fuck ive gotten so many replies on a joke. Statistics. Is it better to live an unbusy life where people think of me as a pleasant agreeable person, who isn't really able to provide for his family. Congratulations. The opposite of the stoic way is the Epicurean way. Cookies help us deliver our Services. How far can my ignorance of how the future will judge me carry me? Evil and its effects in this world are nothing compared to the hereafter and the pain/punishment as well as happiness/reward present there. A moot point, perhaps, but it is better to call things by their proper names. I did not have an answer - this is the result of my search to give a reply that would be a real answer to a tough question. Link. Epicurean means seeking pleasure in moderation so as to prevent future suffering. Then He is malevolent. Half the religions of the world try to remind us of that. Epicureanism is a system of philosophy founded around 307 BC based upon the teachings of the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus.Epicureanism was originally a challenge to Platonism.Later its main opponent became Stoicism.. I was never well-versed in Biblical studies so I don't really know. So what if that thing is people loving god back? Epicurus the Sage Epicurus the Sage was a two-issue limited series graphic novel, written by William Messner-Loebs, with art by Sam Kieth. Because this "paradox" is displaying a false premise. The Epicurean paradox or riddle of Epicurus or Epicurus’ trilemma is a version of the problem of evil. Then He is not omnipotent. He has created every universe with less evil. It is a mistake to think that pure logic is the way to persuade someone that a god does or doesn't exist. The whole wicked and impotent part is just an opinion, not an objective fact. Those parts are nothing more than a slight-of-hand that add nothing themselves and suffer from their own logical inconsistencies. Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei: “God,” he says, “either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or … The first point is an assumption, if you disagree with it, the rest is useless. This list collects only scenarios that have been called a paradox by at least one source and have their own article on Wikipedia. If it seems like something someone might print, physically post, and reference then it is a good link for this sub. He has created every universe with no evil. Details. We’re just stuck in one of the universes he turned to after he made all the better ones. This is all assuming the premise is true. to converge and chat!